(Clearwisdom.net) Editor's note: The following is a recorded conversation between a distinguished Chinese lawyer and a Falun Dafa practitioner in China. Names are withheld to protect identities.

After my release from the so-called "Judiciary Re-education Center" (1) held by the ruthless "610 Office," I ran into a friend I hadn't seen for many years. She is a reputable attorney. After I told her details about my being persecuted by Jiang's followers, she expressed her deepest sympathy and her anger concerning the persecution. She also exposed the Chinese legal system's cooperation in the persecution. Below are the most important points of our conversation.

Practitioner: Are you aware that Jiang's faction sends practitioners to brainwashing programs, ignoring any legal procedures? Age, gender, social standing or physical condition is irrelevant. They send the elderly, pregnant women, high or low level business or government employees, the unemployed, educated or uneducated, not caring about the outcome of such actions. And yet, these practitioners only want to practice Falun Dafa because they wish to be upstanding, good people. Jiang's regime alleged that Falun Dafa practitioners abandon their families. Actually it's the government that is destroying families. This is so inhuman.

Lawyer: I understand this clearly. To lawyers, it is evident that the so-called "re-education program" is just a respectable word for brainwashing, and the persecution of people's minds is the torture of the spirit. This is perfectly clear to us.

Practitioner: Jiang and his followers have committed so much wrong against Falun Gong and its practitioners. They concocted so many stories. For example, they produced the "Self-Immolation at Tiananmen Square" and held Falun Gong practitioners accountable for it. They took words out of context and spread rumors that Teacher Li (founder of Falun Dafa) talked about Armageddon, and that he prohibited the taking of medication, etc. I can clarify the truth about any of these accusations and show clearly that Teacher Li is innocent and Falun Gong unjustly maligned.

Lawyer: Similar unjust accusations were made during the Cultural Revolution, the "June Fourth Movement" (2) and so on. Nothing has changed in the approach this regime has taken!

Practitioner: It is important for me to see that you know and recognize the truth; I am very glad that you do.

Lawyer: The general public is aware of what is going on. People I associate with know that Falun Gong is good for society. Those in the legal profession understand it even more clearly. There was no doubt in our mind that the government staged the "Self-Immolation at Tiananmen Square" using deceptive tactics.

Practitioner: Jiang's followers not only publicize lies about Falun Dafa practitioners, they also go to great lengths to persecute them. Just look at me for example. I didn't break any law, but they confined me to a room, where I had to stay all day long. They successively sent several dozen people to watch over me. I didn't see the sun for months. I was not allowed to make phone calls or write letters. They didn't even allow my family to visit me. They told me that if I didn't "transform" they would detain me indefinitely. What's to transform? To transform is to compromise to their pressure, to do what they refer to as, "Follow the Party and the government. When the Party says an object is red, you can't say it's white." I went on a hunger strike to protest the persecution. They force-fed me. When they did it for the first time, they intentionally inserted the feeding tube in a way that injured my throat. It hurt terribly. I heard that Falun Gong practitioners suffer even worse tortures in forced labor camps.

Lawyer: I understand! Your city is not the worst. People here seem to find the persecution objectionable. They pay more attention to economic development. The persecution against Falun Gong practitioners is more severe in inland provinces. Practitioners suffered death and injuries and practitioners' families are also persecuted. We have heard this from our sources. All these incidents are suppressed and kept secret by the government.

Practitioner: I heard that this year, the Supreme People's Procuratorate's focus is on investigation of human rights abuse. Can we sue the persecutors? Can we hire a lawyer to help us do so? For example, one of my friends served her term in a forced labor camp and was recently released. But she was sent directly to a brainwashing center where they are forcing her to give up her belief. Her family is not allowed to visit her. I'd like to help her. Shouldn't this be considered arbitrarily extending the detention term?

Lawyer: Investigating human rights abuse cases? I hope it will really happen. Not only you, we're also eagerly waiting for it to happen. As far as I know, in today's China, the talk about rule of law or human rights all sounds good. But when it comes to Falun Gong, these rules don't apply. You know, if you ask me to help release a thief who has been detained over his sentence term or help with something else for another criminal with more serious crimes, I can take care of that pretty easily. But for your practitioner friend, I'm afraid my hands are tied. There is nothing I can do.

Practitioner: In other words, no law or human rights apply to Falun Gong practitioners. I heard that the Ministry of Public Security has an internal rule: beating Falun Gong practitioners to death is nothing and should be recorded as suicide.

Lawyer: There is nothing you can do. The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) controls all political, legal and economic aspects of the society. Chinese people's deep-rooted servility, formed during the past several thousand years, is the root-cause for their unquestioning acceptance of the Party controlling every facet of life in China. Isn't there a saying "the law is the ruler's tool"? They are so afraid of Falun Gong that they tried to eliminate it. They enacted this into law, which in itself is a law-breaking act. This shows clearly they do whatever they want. In other words, they legitimized their unlawful acts. (I noticed that she looked extremely frustrated.)

Practitioner: Don't you think the Jiang group is totally dishonorable? They want to control people's minds and privacy, including their movements, all words that come out of a person's mouth and even the thoughts in their minds. There is a fundamental principle in legal theory that legal scholars like you hold fast to, "The law should not govern a person's thoughts. Otherwise, it is not only useless, but also harmful to society."

Lawyer: Yes, I know that political parties in other countries, especially democratic countries, only enact laws that control people's behavior. Their laws don't control what's going on in a person's mind. But this is China. As a friend, I urge you to accept the fact and try to protect yourself. "A wise man submits to fate."

Practitioner: It looks like although you know the truth, you're speaking on the side of power. We practitioners are not interested in politics. We're not against anyone, including the Chinese Communist Party. We just don't want to be forced to tell lies. They want me to say that Falun Gong is not good. But from my point of view, and that was reinforced by my own experiences over the past years, I see that Falun Gong has created a piece of pure land. In addition, many people have found out that those accusations against Falun Gong are groundless rumors. Why don't I have the right to speak the truth? Haven't you learned a lesson from the Cultural Revolution? Using the same logic, without the persecution by Jiang's malevolent group, there would be no anti-persecution movement and no persistent but peaceful efforts by the Falun Gong practitioners to clarify the truth.

Lawyer: (Silent for a while) That's true. If the whole society would follow Falun Gong's principles to purify the body and mind, the world would be a more peaceful place.

Practitioner: In that case, why don't you do anything about the persecution? Is it because you live a comfortable life so you don't care any more? Or you think oppression of people through power is acceptable? What happened to your professional ethics?

Lawyer: (a little upset) No, I don't think it's acceptable. Professional ethics? You know what? The local Justice Bureau held a forum with lawyers in order to answer the demand to "defend" the increasing Falun Gong cases. This is just for show; they need the lawyers to be present when these cases are on trial in court. Even just for show, the lawyers cannot be absent. They chose some lawyers to take these cases. Fortunately, I didn't get involved. For all the lawyers who defend Falun Gong practitioners, the Justice Department must review their defense arguments, and its standard is, "you cannot defend Falun Gong practitioners." They deleted all contents related to the defense of Falun Gong practitioners. How sad is it for the lawyers? They charged Falun Gong defendants, but they are not allowed to speak in their defense?! I can't do this. In our firm, there was a lawyer who took a Falun Gong case, and the defendant's family paid for the service. This kind of defense doesn't make sense since the premise is wrong. You can imagine the verdict of the trial! You mentioned earlier that you want to help a practitioner friend. I would advise you just give up. It won't work. Their goal is to force her to change her mind. If you don't' succumb to their will, the law won't help. Maybe her family can hire a lawyer to deal with them. But it will turn into a transformation campaign by the "610 Office." I don't think you'd like to see this kind of "help." We are frustrated about it too.

Practitioner: We know very clearly the whole system under Jiang is inhuman. It is known from ancient times that evil deeds will receive karmic retribution and virtuous actions will be rewarded. The evil side will always lose. We try to use legal measures to let more people understand our cause and know the truth about Falun Gong. Right now it's not realistic to punish the villains that persecute practitioners via the legal system in China. But the "Bring Jiang to Justice" movement has begun. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Thank you. You're a lawyer with conscience.


(1) "Judiciary Re-education Center" -- Brainwashing center used to persecute Falun Dafa practitioners. Practitioners are held against their wills and are forced to listen to fabricated stories maligning Falun Dafa.

(2) "June Fourth Movement" -- This was a student movement against corruption and social injustice in China. On June 4, 1989, protesters, mainly students, were attacked by the government troops with tanks and guns at Tiananmen Square. Many students lost their lives that day.